Mothering Magazine Sponsored Chat with Cynthia Good Mojab, MS, IBCLC, RLC, CATSM is a clinical counselor, international board certified lactation consultant, author, researcher, and speaker. Through her private practice, LifeCircle Counseling and Consulting (LLC) she offers a blend of psychological and lactation services to women and health care providers, in person and by phone.

In this chat, Cynthia will talk about recovering from a difficult or traumatic birth experience.

www.mothering.com
8/23/06

9 mamas in attendance

All Mothering Sponsored chats with Cynthia:
4/27/06  5/25/06  6/29/06  8/23/06  9/28/06  10/26/06

 

Cynthia_Good_Mojab: Yes, the CATSM stands for Certified in Acute Traumatic Stress Management. I'm also a member of the American Academy of Experts on Traumatic Stress. I have a book chapter in press called, The impact of traumatic childbirth on health through the undermining of breastfeeding." I have known many women who have struggled to overcome a traumatic childbirth experience--and most of them had a very hard time finding anyone who really understood the legitimacy of what they were coping with."
Webmama_Tina: okey dokey, guess its a slow chat today...well then we can have an informal one! :)
Webmama_Tina: lets see...the topic today....
Webmama_Tina: Cynthia Good Mojab, MS, IBCLC, RLC, CATSM is a clinical counselor, international board certified lactation consultant, author, researcher, and speaker. Through her private practice, LifeCircle Counseling and Consulting (LLC) she offers a blend of psychological and lactation services to women and health care providers, in person and by phone. In this chat, Cynthia will talk about recovering from a difficult or traumatic birth experience.
mom0810: ?
Webmama_Tina: cynthia did you want to add anything to that?
Webmama_Tina: oh and man do i have traumatic birth experiences for you! :(
Webmama_Tina: hello? anyone there? :)
Webmama_Tina: ah ha
Webmama_Tina: :)
Cynthia_Good_Mojab: : )
Webmama_Tina: ok mom0810, you're up first!
mom0810: My first son was born in December 2005.  It was a very traumaic experience, in that I was induced  at 38 weeks, in labor for 25 hours (on a monitor that was broken so they kept upping my pitocin) and then ending in a C section after pushing for 2 hours
Webmama_Tina: oh, shall we have a show of hands if you've experienced a traumatic birth experience?
Webmama_Tina: *raises 2 hands*
pyxiwulf: *raises hand*
Webmama_Tina: ouch mom0810
Webmama_Tina: :(
mom0810: because he was stuck.  Then, he would not bfbecause he had meconium plug that he did not pass until the 2nd day.  They kept him in the NICU for 4 days.  I am having an awful time getting over it, and he is 9 months old!
mom0810: I did not sleep and they were keeping him in the NICU on FORMULA and did not care that I wanted to bf him.  I finally got my doctor to get him discharged, and thank God once he was out of the hospital, he started nursing and is doing fine now.
Cynthia_Good_Mojab: That sounds like a very, very difficult experience, mom0810.
Cynthia_Good_Mojab: Have you been able to find any support for coping with all of this?
mom0810: The hardest thing was not being able to bring him home.  I had two miscarriages prior to this pregnancy.
mom0810: Well, friends and family.
Cynthia_Good_Mojab: Having a newborn in the NICU is such a very hard experience--even if birth itself went well.
Cynthia_Good_Mojab: Were you afraid that he would die, after having lost two other babies through miscarriage?
mom0810: The hardest part was that there was no reason for keeping him.  All of the testing was normal and every doctor I have spoken to since said there was no reason for him to stay.  Yes, I was afraid he would die and never come home
mom0810: The nurses were telling me he could have meningitis or Hirschprung's or all of these things.  I left the hospital and just cried like I never have before... wailing.  I thought he would never come home and the nurses were adding to my fear.
Cynthia_Good_Mojab: Four days separated from your baby and afraid he would die--and then to have no reason for keeping him. Did you feel powerless against the health care providers who said he needed to be hospitalized?
mom0810: YES!  Every time  I would ask WHY is he still here, they would just pat me on the head and say things like, don't you worry about it, he will come home someday.  The only reason he was released is that I demanded it.  He was fine the minute we got home
Cynthia_Good_Mojab: Yes, how frightening to be told of these possibilities and to have to leave him at the hospital...
mom0810: My milk came in as soon as we got him home and he latched on that day.  He would not do this in the hospital.
Webmama_Tina: for latecomers--Welcome to this week's Mothering Sponsored chat! This is a moderated chat. Please make sure you read and fully understand the Moderated Chat Instructions before participating in this chat. Instructions can be found here: http://www.mommychats.com/modrules.htm  ...A Friendly Reminder: Please do not post unless it is your turn to ask a question. If you have a question, please post a single ?" and you'll be added to the queue. Have your question ready when your name is called."
Cynthia_Good_Mojab: So you were not offered any real opportunity to make an informed decision about whether he stayed in the NICU or not. Just told it was necessary and that there were no alternatives.
mom0810: The doctor was a neonatologist from Children's and very holier than thou.  She did not offer any justification for her thinking.  The scary thought is, we have EXCELLENT health insurance and the NICU and nursery were empty.  I hate to think the motivation
mom0810: was financial.. but it's hard not to.
Cynthia_Good_Mojab: Mother-infant separation interferes with breastfeeding, infant development, maternal development, the stability of multiple bodily processes in infants (e.g., temperature maintenance, normal oxygenation, etc.)....
mom0810: i just feel very violated.
Cynthia_Good_Mojab: And, if we can't trust our health care providers, then what?
mom0810: exactly.
Cynthia_Good_Mojab: Violated in your trust of your health care providers, your rights as a mother, your baby's needs...?
mom0810: all of the above
Webmama_Tina: heck *I* want to write a letter of fury/complaint to them for you now!!!
Webmama_Tina: :(   {{{{{hug}}}}}
mom0810: I did write a letter, but no response.
Cynthia_Good_Mojab: No response?!
mom0810: Nope.
Webmama_Tina: wow that's unacceptable
mom0810: And, I insisted on having ALL of his records and they tried to tell me I could not have them
Webmama_Tina: ah hell no
mom0810: made me wait for 2 months to get them
Webmama_Tina: sorry..i'm feelin for ya. grrrrrrrr
Webmama_Tina: where do you live, if i may ask?
Cynthia_Good_Mojab: There's a concept called secondary traumatization." It happens when a mother is traumatized and then she reveals that traumatization in some way and the response to her revelation is completely unsupportive, invalidating, etc. Then a mother feels traumatized all over again."
Webmama_Tina: *nodding*
pyxiwulf: ?
mom0810: Illinois.  northwest of Chicago.
Cynthia_Good_Mojab: It can stop a mother from trying to reaching out again--which can pose real barriers for healing...
Webmama_Tina: current chatter:  Webmama_Tina ...upcoming chatter:  pyxiwulf
Webmama_Tina: wow
Webmama_Tina: i wouldn't think of IL as backward
Webmama_Tina: not THAT backward
Webmama_Tina: erg
Webmama_Tina: that was supposed to be:  current chatter:  mom0810  ...upcoming chatter:  pyxiwulf
mom0810: No, and we live in an affluent area.  I'm 32 years old and college educated.  I just couldn't understand why this doctor did not think I was smart enough to understand what was goin on.
Webmama_Tina: :(
mom0810: I'll let the next person go...
Cynthia_Good_Mojab: And, it's not like you could easily go doctor shopping having just given birth, having a baby in the NICU, coping with trauma and fear, etc.
Webmama_Tina: did you have a question  mom0810 ?
Cynthia_Good_Mojab: Thank you for sharing a little of your experience mom0810. That is a lot to be coping with...
Cynthia_Good_Mojab: Is there another question?
Webmama_Tina: pyxiwulf is up next
pyxiwulf: I had wanted an at home birth to avoid interventions, but my husband was scared of that so I comprimised with a mw hospital birth.
Cynthia_Good_Mojab: That's a common conflict between partners....
pyxiwulf: I ended up attached to the bed with an IV, O2, amnio infusion and internal monitor. I hadn't been off the bed in 20 hours by the time she was born
Cynthia_Good_Mojab: Every intervention you didn't want...
pyxiwulf: now, all I can think about is having another just to have an at home,n o comrimise this time, but I know this is not reasonable thinking for having another child
pyxiwulf: I can't stop it though
Cynthia_Good_Mojab: After a difficult or traumatic birth, many women have a strong desire for another child and a redeeming" experience. It can really be a very strong desire."
Cynthia_Good_Mojab: Even though their intellect" recognizes that it's not reasonable thinking, the heart is yearning for healing...."
pyxiwulf: i feel even worse now, #1 is adopted and i wanted to make sure #2 was bio so that i would experience child birth, but the urge is horrible now
pyxiwulf: and I am already being treated for ppd
Cynthia_Good_Mojab: So, you had a dream of biological birth without interventions...at home, with support, a good experience...
Cynthia_Good_Mojab: It sounds like you are grieving the loss of your dream. Yearning is a part of grieving.
pyxiwulf: yes, gerttin
Cynthia_Good_Mojab: PPD and grief have many overlapping symptoms. May I ask what kind of treatment for PPD you are engaging in?
pyxiwulf: errr...seeing this as i talk about it finally
pyxiwulf: 50mg zoloft
pyxiwulf: and bfing
pyxiwulf: :)
Cynthia_Good_Mojab: : )
kristi: ?
Cynthia_Good_Mojab: While the use of psychotropic medications can be useful for the treatment of PPD, they do nothing to help a woman grieve well. Have you considered talking with a mental health care provider who specializes in issues such as grieving a lost birth experience?
pyxiwulf: no, I actually haven't considered that.  I was being treated for PPD preemptively due to my history, but obviously I have more to mess with my head now
Cynthia_Good_Mojab: The loss of a dreamed of or expected birth experience is a legitimate loss--even if it is not widely recognized in many societies.
pyxiwulf: thank you for opening my eyes, I didn't realize I was quite this upset over it.
Cynthia_Good_Mojab: This could be something to explore. Sometimes new losses (e.g., birth related) stir up old losses that a woman never had the chance to grieve well. Or grief and PPD happen at the same time. Regardless of why grief is happening, it doesn't go away on its own. To grieve well, we need companionship--the chance to feel sad, to speak our loss, to receive support, .... This kind of support can come from friends and family. But sometimes, they just can't give what we need. ICAN groups can be a source of support. Counseling can be a source of support.
Cynthia_Good_Mojab: You're welcome. You have every right to be upset.
Cynthia_Good_Mojab: Is there another question?
luvshmi: ?
Webmama_Tina: kristi, you're up
kristi: Thanks
kristi: Four weeks ago I gave birth (vaginally) to an 11 lb, 4 1/2 oz baby
kristi: She got very stuck and it was more than a frightening experience for me
kristi: I have been feeling a lot of anger the last few weeks
kristi: Wondering how much of that is just sleep deprivation (along with two other kids)
Cynthia_Good_Mojab: Yes, it sound like a very frightening experience.
kristi: Now you are talking about loss of a dream (a nice, pleasant last delivery)
kristi: (sorry - crying baby in my arms as I chat)
Cynthia_Good_Mojab: Sleep deprivation can certainly contribute to anger, however, that doesn't mean there aren't also other reasons for anger...
kristi: I haven't known how much processing I need to do about the delivery
Cynthia_Good_Mojab: No problem, take your time.
kristi: I have avoided thinking about it even, because it feels like I will explode in an emotional heap (dramatic, I know)
Cynthia_Good_Mojab: Not only can birth be overwhelming and traumatic, the aftermath of a difficult birth can be overwhelming. Emotions can be very powerful....
kristi: Just seeing that there was a chat about traumatic birth was such a relief
kristi: I didn't want to go to New Mom's groups because they are really geared for new, new mom
kristi: first timers
Cynthia_Good_Mojab: Is there a pattern you've noticed about your anger? Who it's directed at? What it's about? When it happens in this intense way?
kristi: my husband, my children - just an incredible lack of patience
Cynthia_Good_Mojab: Yes, mothers can feel so very alone after a traumatic birth. Everyone seems to want them to just move on somehow, just focus on the baby as though the birth experience didn't matter at all.
kristi: I don't like who I've become
kristi: my husband has been very supportive, but I recognize that it was very traumatic for him as well
Cynthia_Good_Mojab: I imagine you have very little time and energy that you can spend on yourself and your healing.
kristi: so I'm not sure he is the best one to turn to
Cynthia_Good_Mojab: Yes, birth witnesses can also be traumatized--and then they can't provide as much support as a traumatized mother needs because they are overwhelmed, too.
kristi: I think you may have mentioned this...are there support groups for traumatic birth specifically?
Webmama_Tina: seems like there should be a national organization for healing traumatic birth experiences...not just c-section (just thinking out loud)
Webmama_Tina: hey, kristi, we think alike! LOL
Cynthia_Good_Mojab: I want to mention that I have two handouts newly placed on my website. One called, Coping with Maternal Stress and Depression" and one called "When Birth is Traumatic." They might give you some ideas of how to cope with all that has happened and your anger now."
Cynthia_Good_Mojab: My website is www.lifecirclecc.com
kristi: Yes, I read those. Very validating for my experience.
Webmama_Tina: here's a really really good one too: http://www.plus-size-pregnancy.org/CSANDVBAC/shouldbegrateful.htm
Cynthia_Good_Mojab: ICAN ( www.ican-online.org ) does have local chapters with meetings to support mothers after a c-section.
Webmama_Tina: its specifically about c-section but relevant for all traumatic birth experiences, i think...
Webmama_Tina: its a common thing to hear you should be grateful""
Webmama_Tina: most guilt inducing and crappy thing to hear
Cynthia_Good_Mojab: Your local chapter might know of support groups for women after a traumatic birth regardless of whether the birth was operative or not.
kristi: Everyone pretty much says to me, You are superwoman!""
kristi: But I didn't want to be superwoman. I wanted a nice, pleasant birth experience!!
Webmama_Tina: absolutely
Webmama_Tina: looks like luvshmi had to go so i'll go next....
Cynthia_Good_Mojab: Any sentence with should" in it ought to be banned when spoken to a mother after a traumatic birth. These kinds of sentences only serve to convey that what she is feeling and experiencing is wrong. What she is feeling and experiencing is not wrong--it is the result of living through a traumatic experience. These feelings IN NO WAY negate her gratitude or love for her baby. They co-exist."
oopidsnot: ?
Webmama_Tina: i wanted to share my new blog i just put up (well its old info i just moved it to blogger)...for anyone that might think it could be helpful for themselves or someone you know... www.baelinsrealm.blogspot.com  ...because i write a LOT about my feelings surround my son's birth and death and also some about the traumatic experience i had with my daughter's birth prior...
Webmama_Tina: i think i'm doing pretty well after all this time...
Webmama_Tina: but feelings never fully go away
Cynthia_Good_Mojab: You are a superwoman" also has an underlying message: a superwoman would go through a traumatic birth without somehow being traumatized. This is a grossly unrealistic and unjust expectation. You have the right to be a human being."
Webmama_Tina: i tell ya what though...i'm TERRIFIED of accidentally getting pregnant again and having to go into that whole world of pregnancy and what the hell to do for another birth!
kristi: There's also the personal feelings that I shouldn't" have been traumatized by it"
Cynthia_Good_Mojab: Grieving and healing are not neat packages. They're multilayered, circular, complex processes...
kristi: I should have been stronger, more in control
Webmama_Tina: of course...guilt is such a strong mommy emotion...ugh
Cynthia_Good_Mojab: You're feeling that you did something wrong....
Webmama_Tina: i'm actually thinking of faxing that article to a few of the OBs that told me that you should crap"
Webmama_Tina: maybe some of them might actually read it and hear us
Webmama_Tina: i heard it from quite a few when i was interviewing for a vbac
Webmama_Tina: oopidsnot did you have a question?
Cynthia_Good_Mojab: Our culture really emphasizes being in control"....It is very hard for many mothers to learn how to live with the actuality that there are many things (particularly in the course of birth and mothering) that are completely beyond our control. It requires the grieving of the loss of the illusion of control."
oopidsnot: I had a pretty scrambled birth experience.  I was planning a home birth, went a week overdue, ended up going to hospital, doc tried everything in the book to convince me to have a c-section (which I declined but he scheduled me for one anyway).  My --
oopidsnot: support people weren't getting along.  I'm mostly at a loss for what to do if we have another baby.  My experience didn't exactly leave me in confidence of my husband, or my mother.  My best friend was awesome, but my husband doesn't like her.
Cynthia_Good_Mojab: The last thing a mother needs in labor and birth is conflict among her support people. It doesn't feel safe and it draws precious energy and attention away from the mother who needs it.
oopidsnot: I'm stuck between my husband present just because he's my husband . . . or having my friend present because she was the only one that gave me support.
Cynthia_Good_Mojab: That's a terrible bind.
oopidsnot: At the birth, my husband was too panicky and fell for everything the doctor was saying!  My mom encouraged me to have a c-section because it was 'easier' and disregarded how important it was for me to birth vaginally.
Cynthia_Good_Mojab: It sounds like their own needs were so unmet during birth that they had no resources with which to support you.
oopidsnot: My best friend, the one who nobody likes, was the one who encouraged me to follow my heart and do what feels right.  She would be top of the list for my next birth because of the power she passes on to me.
oopidsnot: But then my husband wouldn't be there . . .
oopidsnot: It's the birth of his baby!  He should be there.
Cynthia_Good_Mojab: Yes.
Webmama_Tina: oopidsnot have you and your dh taken bradley classes?
oopidsnot: No, I haven't heard of them.
Cynthia_Good_Mojab: And, if he is not there, then you would probably feel his absence keenly--even though his presence last time was not particularly effective, either.
Cynthia_Good_Mojab: You can find out more about Bradley at: http://www.bradleybirth.com
Webmama_Tina: oh, cynthia do you think that could help? it really empowered my dh when we took those classes...even though i didn't agree with all of it...he learned a LOT...he was a lot like your hubby,  oopidsnot
oopidsnot: I've been trying to educate him.  Giving him books to read, sites to look over.  He's a terrible procrastinator and just left all the information to collect dust.
Webmama_Tina: yeah my dh is the same way...he won't read anything
Webmama_Tina: so take him to a class
Webmama_Tina: the words coming out of someone else's mouth really make a difference for some dh's i think...for mine it did...he just doesn't put a lot of stock in my ramblings, but if someone he feels is qualified says it, he'll listen
Cynthia_Good_Mojab: Many husbands/partners don't know *how* to help a woman give birth. How could they? When have they ever been exposed to role models showing them what they could do? When have they had the opportunity to really learn about birth and talk about their fears?
Webmama_Tina: right...those classes really help with that
Webmama_Tina: bradley really empowers you...both of you
Cynthia_Good_Mojab: Bradley classes can help a partner learn and develop tools in a toolbox so that they can be more emotionally comfortable themselves and more supportive.
Webmama_Tina: and get a trained doula
oopidsnot: I'll look into it, thankyou :)  Something else that bugs me about him, is that this friend of mine is very well educated and births unnassisted.  She knows quite a bit!  But because my husband doesn't like her, he won't listen to anything she has to say.
oopidsnot: He goes out of his way to do the opposite, sort of thing.
Webmama_Tina: that really helped with us too because it takes the pressure off of dad to have to know what to do
Webmama_Tina: get a doula he likes or its a moot point
Webmama_Tina: that's just my opinion
Webmama_Tina: :)
Webmama_Tina: and again, someone he perceives as knowledgable on the subject he may actually listen to
oopidsnot: My friend was my doula.  She is trained to be, and also a lactation consultant and LLL leader.  I don't think I could get anyone else quite as qualified as her :)
Webmama_Tina: your hubby sounds so much like mine! argh! LOL
Cynthia_Good_Mojab: I was thinking about doulas, too. And, some Bradley instructors also serve as doulas so moms and dads get the chance to get to know the instructor and *jointly* choose a neutral" and trusted person to help at the birth."
oopidsnot: Are the Bradley Classes restricted to the States?  I'm in Canada.
Webmama_Tina: why doesn't your dh like your friend?
Webmama_Tina: oh man, i just noticed the time...sorry cynthia
Cynthia_Good_Mojab: Your best friend sounds like a great source of support for you--but not for your husband. Ideally, a doula can effectively support both the mother and father during birth. Because without support that works for him, the father can't support the mother.
Webmama_Tina: this is a topic near and dear to my heart, sadly
oopidsnot: She has very strong opinions.  Kind of like her way . . . or the wrong way!
Webmama_Tina: ah
Cynthia_Good_Mojab: No problem, Tina. I don't have any pressing appointments....
Webmama_Tina: :)
Webmama_Tina: yes i totally agree cynthia...if the doula rubs the dad the wrong way then its not going to be helpful
Webmama_Tina: i would suggest finding another doula...one that you have a professional relationship with might be more of a draw to your dh
Webmama_Tina: and take those bradley classes...they're in canada too, aren't they cynthia?
oopidsnot: Yes, I agree. :)  Thankyou
Cynthia_Good_Mojab: And, it doesn't really matter if it's due to something about the doula or something about the dad or something about both. What matters is it's not working. If it's not working, change sounds helpful and hopeful. : )
Cynthia_Good_Mojab: Bradley's Find an Instructor" page lets you enter a country different from the US. I'll bet there's an instructor in Canada, but I don't know for a fact."
Cynthia_Good_Mojab: Are there any other questions?
mom0810: Thanks so much, everyone.  It helps to know that I am not the only one who had a hard time
kristi: Cynthia, do you lead a local support group?
Cynthia_Good_Mojab: You're very welcome. You are not alone. Far too many women are coping with difficult or traumatic birth experiences. Sometimes they happen just because of chance. Too often they happen because of something that health care providers did or did not do. Either way, mothers need and deserve support and information for healing. Birth experiences matter.
Cynthia_Good_Mojab: I'm not currently leading a local support group, kristi. (Local is Hillsboro, Oregon.)
Webmama_Tina: there must be online support groups too....do you know of any cynthia?
Webmama_Tina: support communities for this topic?
Webmama_Tina: although real live ones are best, sometimes you take what you can get
Cynthia_Good_Mojab: I do work with women in my private practice who are trying to grieve and heal and cope with mothering while doing both.
kristi: I'm in Portland  :)
Webmama_Tina: i think that was the last of our questions, right?
Cynthia_Good_Mojab: Yes, there are online groups. If you go to the Resources section of my website, and then click on the link related to pregnancy and birth...
Webmama_Tina: mothering and grieving at the same time is SOOOO hard
Webmama_Tina: awesome, cynthia, thank you
Cynthia_Good_Mojab: There are links to organizations that focus on recovering from traumatic birth. I believe at least one of them has online support groups.
kristi: Thanks!
Cynthia_Good_Mojab: You're very welcome. Thank you everyone for sharing your experience in this forum. I wish you all the chance to grieve well with good support for healing.
Webmama_Tina: thank you cynthia
Webmama_Tina: and thank you for another great chat!
Webmama_Tina: i'm behind on transcripts right now, but i will get them up soon...
Webmama_Tina: make sure you're on the egroup so you'll get notice when they're up. :)
Webmama_Tina: Please join the Mommy Chats egroup at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/mommychats  to receive notices about upcoming chats and changes to Mommy Chats.
Webmama_Tina: and thank you mamas!
Cynthia_Good_Mojab: You're welcome. We're working on scheduling another chat--next time about Pioneer Mothering" (mothering when you're the first to do something, like breastfeeding, not spanking, etc.)."
Webmama_Tina: ah sounds like a good topic!
Webmama_Tina: well i must get out of here...my daughter is wanting some mommy time while the baby sleeps...
Webmama_Tina: take care all!
Cynthia_Good_Mojab: Good bye!