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Chat with Positive Discipline Facilitator & Associate, Kelly
of Jane Nelsen's positive discipline techniques and books
( www.positivediscipline.com )
11/24/04

Books by Jane Nelsen:

22:04:31 PDMod_Kelly Yeah, go ahead and fire away with a ?
22:04:50 sagira Don't worry, I'm just the mom of a toddler
22:05:02 sagira He's 14 months old
22:05:08 sagira And very sweet
22:05:23 PDMod_Kelly But that's SO exhausting sometimes!! They require so much supervision.
22:05:42 sagira At a playgroup today he got pushed to the ground and smacked multiple times on the face :(
22:05:52 PDMod_Kelly OH NO!!! :(
22:05:54 sagira I'm still recovering.. VERY tough to watch
22:06:06 sagira The perpetrator? A two-year-old.
22:06:15 PDMod_Kelly Yeah, 2 yo's can be pretty rough.
22:06:30 sagira Even though I thought I'd read everything
22:06:36 sagira I don't know if I reacted accordingly
22:07:00 sagira I rushed with an Oh my God" and picked him up, cradled him in my arms, soothed him"
22:07:01 PDMod_Kelly Oh, it's so hard to know what to do because it usually happens so fast.
22:07:14 sagira That's right. In a flash. I just turned my back for seconds
22:07:42 sagira And the mother of the child scooped her son up fast and left the room. I didn't see her or the child again for the rest of the time.
22:07:49 sagira I just hope he didn't get spanked.
22:08:00 PDMod_Kelly She was probably embarrassed.
22:08:00 sagira My son recovered quicker than I did.. I was bawling!
22:08:06 sagira Yes, I think so
22:08:23 sagira I felt so hopeless and weak, crying like that in front of everyone
22:08:35 PDMod_Kelly Oh, they could probably relate.
22:09:01 sagira What do I do? Is it typical for toddlers to imitate this behavior? Should I expect anything in the next few days?
22:09:25 PDMod_Kelly One time a 2 yo. walked up to my infant (who was in a bouncy seat) and swung or something. All I know is we turned around and my baby had been knocked over and hit her head on the ceramic tile floor.
22:09:42 sagira From the PD books I can gather that the boy reacted that way because he lacks social as well as language skills, so I made a point not to villainize him
22:10:10 PDMod_Kelly Yeah, 2 yo.'s are SO impulsive and don't have many control skills.
22:10:12 sagira When the moms asked me about him, I said that he lacked social skills and he didn't know how to deal with his emotions yet
22:10:40 PDMod_Kelly Yes, your son might do something either out of anger OR as a way to process what happened to him --kind of a reinactment.
22:11:20 sagira He seems fine so far but my stomach just turns just thinking that he may have learned that hitting is OK
22:11:27 PDMod_Kelly It is supposed to be helpful for young children to reinact stressful situations as a way to process it.
22:11:51 sagira We don't spank, treat him with respect, I nurse him and he sleeps in our bed
22:12:07 sagira To bring closure I suppose
22:12:07 PDMod_Kelly I'm guessing that by the way everyone reacted that he probably got at least some idea that it wasn't okay to hit --with you comforting him and the other mom wisking away her son.
22:12:24 sagira That's true, I didn't think of that :)
22:12:37 PDMod_Kelly But of course many kids will want to try out the hitting behavior for themselves.
22:12:54 sagira I'm just so anti-violence it was such a shock to see that.. I keep replaying the scene in my head
22:13:00 PDMod_Kelly Or they may hit a stuffed animal or doll, etc.
22:13:08 sagira Should I have acted any differently?
22:13:31 PDMod_Kelly Yes, a parent's first experience with violence on their child is SO memorable.
22:13:47 sagira Yes, Brandon likes to bang for fun, with this expression of pure bliss on his face.. usually on a drum, or on the bed
22:13:52 sagira Never out of anger
22:13:52 PDMod_Kelly No, I don't think you should have reacted differently. You comforted him.
22:14:36 sagira I'm just really glad the mom took the child away, because I don't know what I would've done with him (not anything bad, but just.. clueless)
22:14:42 PDMod_Kelly This might sound funny, but after having two kids, it doesn't seem as big of a deal for a child to start swinging every once in a while.
22:14:44 sagira Thanks! I feel so much better!
22:14:54 PDMod_Kelly I mean for me!
22:15:21 PDMod_Kelly I really hate it when they fight and argue, but it happens sometimes with siblings.
22:15:37 PDMod_Kelly My kids get along pretty well these days, but they have had their moments, like normal siblings.
22:15:42 sagira You mean.. you swinging? *)
22:15:54 PDMod_Kelly LOL! No, with them swinging.
22:16:14 sagira My friend (who has two children as well) says that it's worse to see your own children hitting each other
22:16:27 sagira Oh :)
22:16:29 sagira Sure
22:17:10 PDMod_Kelly Yes, it's two people that you LOVE, hitting each other!! YIKES!
22:17:29 PDMod_Kelly Well, do you have any other ?s
22:17:42 sagira I love the Positive Discipline Books.. I own PD: The First Three Years, PD: A-Z and Positive Time-Out. I feel they're changing my life :)
22:17:57 sagira Umm.. I didn't think I was going to have this special opportunity.. hang on a minute..
22:19:36 sagira Do you feel..
22:19:45 sagira it's a problem if you say good job" too often?"
22:20:50 PDMod_Kelly Well, it CAN be.
22:21:06 PDMod_Kelly Have you read Alfie Kohn's article about good job"?"
22:21:19 sagira My husband (who's wonderfully supportive) says that that's nonsense and saying good job" is actually a good thing, even "good boy". I think "good job" is OK (even though I try to say more often, You did it! Great! Yes etc.) but not "good boy"
22:21:30 sagira Sounds like treating your child like a dog
22:22:00 PDMod_Kelly Yeah, and if you don't happen to say good boy", then some kids get the idea that they are a "bad boy" or a "not good boy"."
22:22:19 sagira Yes I have. That's why I'm asking :) My husband thinks that's going a bit too far
22:22:29 PDMod_Kelly One way to determine how you are using those phrases is...........
22:22:37 PDMod_Kelly are you using them in a sincere way OR
22:23:48 PDMod_Kelly are you using them to try to motivate your son in a behavior modification kind of way.
22:23:54 sagira So the danger lies in using them as blanket statements..
22:24:09 sagira When you're distracted, don't care?
22:24:21 PDMod_Kelly Well, I have a friend who says good boy" as sort of a verbal reward to her kids."
22:24:29 sagira Oh, I see. Using good boy" or "good job" to try to manipulate?"
22:24:42 PDMod_Kelly So when each of her kids were potting training, after they would use the potty, she would say good boy.""
22:24:55 PDMod_Kelly Or after they ate all of their food on their plate, she would say, good boy.""
22:25:10 sagira Oh now that sounds like Behavioral Psychology to me.. like training rats
22:25:33 PDMod_Kelly Yes, if it's being used as a way to manipulate, THEN I think it's probably not a good thing for the child.
22:25:48 sagira Hmmm.. so it's more the intent than the actual words you use
22:26:05 PDMod_Kelly I do say good job" every once in a while, but usually I try to be more descriptive."
22:26:33 PDMod_Kelly Something like, Wow, you did a great job on the bathroom clean up. I noticed that you even put all of the magazines in the hold.""
22:26:46 PDMod_Kelly Yes, I agree it's the intent.
22:27:06 sagira Gotcha. I can see how the child would appreciate that more.
22:27:23 PDMod_Kelly Whoops! That was supposed to say, in the holder.""
22:27:40 sagira LOL
22:29:54 sagira How long have you been practicing PD and how long have you been teaching?
22:30:28 sagira I want to become a child psychologist so this is fascinating subject to me
22:32:02 PDMod_Kelly I've been working on" practicing PD for 10 years. It took me a few years to REALLY get it."
22:32:14 PDMod_Kelly I've been teaching about 4 years.
22:33:08 sagira That's great!
22:33:51 PDMod_Kelly You may want to check into some of the Adlerian schools for psych.
22:33:55 sagira I'm going to confess.. I read the books ALL the time so that the concepts can sink in and I can practice them in the heat of the moment
22:34:09 PDMod_Kelly Oh, I had to read the books over and over again.
22:34:32 sagira I was raised with punishment, even spanking (in anger)
22:34:32 PDMod_Kelly It is REALLY neat to attend a PD parenting class, That made such a difference for me.
22:34:53 sagira And my mom still criticizes me all the time, non-stop it seems
22:34:55 PDMod_Kelly Most people were raised with punishment. It's rare to find someone who wasn't.
22:35:07 PDMod_Kelly My parents only punished rarely and it never worked when they did.
22:35:18 sagira I would love to. They don't have any in South Florida, though. I checked.
22:35:28 PDMod_Kelly Yikes. I have a friend whose mom does the same to her.
22:35:42 sagira I agree. Whenever my mom punished me (my dad didn't) I would learn to become sneakier
22:36:08 sagira One of the reasons PD rings so true for me is I feel the four mistaken goals of misbehavior are dead-on
22:36:30 PDMod_Kelly Maybe you could think about attending a two day training to become a PD instructor in South Florida.
22:37:16 sagira So I find myself rereading everything to make sure I don't go on automatic pilot.. meaning, repeating what I know: You never.. You always.. Why do you? After I told you a thousand times? What's the matter with you? You're hopeless.. etc. etc.
22:37:19 PDMod_Kelly Yes, now that I've studied the mistaken goals for so long, I just immediately think about them when I see either a child or an adult misbehaving.
22:37:41 PDMod_Kelly Well, don't beat yourself up too much if you slip sometimes.
22:38:21 sagira Actually, I've been thinking about becoming an instructor in the future. Right now I'm starting as a freelance copywriter from home to support our family
22:38:56 sagira I'm getting there, but I'm not quite there yet :) (re: mistaken goals)
22:39:00 PDMod_Kelly Most of our instructors just teach the classes on the side.
22:39:16 PDMod_Kelly There aren't any people getting full time work out of it quite yet, but I'm hoping!!
22:39:25 sagira You're right, because mistakes are wonderful opportunities to learn".. that's probably the toughest one for me to internalize. I'm a perfectionist!"
22:39:36 sagira But I'm changing..
22:39:36 PDMod_Kelly That's my favorite PD concept.
22:39:56 PDMod_Kelly Sometimes I joke with my kids by saying something that Jane said on one of her audio tapes.
22:40:16 PDMod_Kelly Bye, have a good day. Make lots of mistakes and see what you can learn from them!"
22:40:23 sagira Haha! :D
22:40:56 sagira Record that for me so I can replay it over and over.. :)
22:42:51 sagira I should check out www.positivediscipline.com and read the qualifications again
22:43:08 PDMod_Kelly All you have to do to become a faciliator is take a two day training.
22:43:23 sagira It sounded really long and time-consuming for right now, and my husband and I are in the process of buying a house
22:43:23 PDMod_Kelly I'm a PD Associate and that takes a little more to do.
22:43:29 sagira Whoa.. that's IT?
22:43:40 PDMod_Kelly Yes, once you take the two day training, you can teach the classes.
22:43:46 sagira I guess I read the wrong section
22:43:58 PDMod_Kelly You might have read the PD Associate section.
22:44:10 PDMod_Kelly The PD Associates do the 2 day trainings.
22:44:20 PDMod_Kelly I mean they teach the 2 day training.
22:45:01 sagira Oh, I see
22:45:04 PDMod_Kelly I'd love to travel to all kinds of places to teach PD and get some people interested in becoming facilitators.
22:45:22 PDMod_Kelly BUT that requires that people pay for classes and pay enough to cover my travel expenses and that's alot.
22:45:23 sagira I love the whole concept.. I just disagree with two things
22:45:37 sagira 1) Letting a baby cry it out
22:45:43 PDMod_Kelly I was going to guess.
22:45:44 PDMod_Kelly :)
22:45:48 PDMod_Kelly That was one of my guesses.
22:45:55 PDMod_Kelly Kids sleeping in their own beds?
22:45:57 sagira Good guess!
22:46:23 sagira Wanna guess the next one? ;)
22:46:48 sagira Well.. yes..
22:47:01 PDMod_Kelly I posted on a Positive Discipline message board and the majority of the moms there disagree with Jane on crying it out especially.
22:47:17 PDMod_Kelly Extended nursing?
22:47:17 sagira When they're small. But after three, I think they should sleep in their own beds
22:48:10 sagira Actually, Jane offers choices regarding extended nursing. I didn't feel her really condoning it. She even recommended contacting La Leche, which I'm a member of.
22:49:02 sagira I guess I'm a PD/AP sort of person if there is that kind of thing
22:49:27 PDMod_Kelly Most of the PD moms I know are PD/AP moms.
22:49:41 PDMod_Kelly Well, I don't know what else to guess.
22:50:07 sagira Oh you were right!
22:50:21 PDMod_Kelly Oh, I thought we only covered one.
22:50:34 sagira Kid sleeping in their own beds, because she never recommends it
22:50:47 PDMod_Kelly Well, Jane did have 7 children, LOL!
22:50:48 sagira Crying it out and co-sleeping
22:50:51 sagira :)
22:51:08 sagira That's right!
22:51:25 sagira And husbands play a big role
22:51:33 PDMod_Kelly Definitely.
22:51:45 sagira My husband loves the arrangement
22:52:19 PDMod_Kelly We always started our kids out in their own beds, but my dtr. usually got up in the middle of the night and got into our bed and that was fine.
22:52:28 sagira It's not for everyone, but I think it should stay an option
22:52:30 PDMod_Kelly When they were nursing, I kep them in the bed with me often.
22:53:02 sagira It's so much easier nursing at night
22:53:25 PDMod_Kelly Even when my dtr. was 4 and still climbing into our bed at night, she didn't bother us because she slept so still.
22:53:53 PDMod_Kelly But if our son ever climbed into our bed at night, one of us usually got out of the bed and went to get into his bed because he squirmed and kicked so much in his sleep.
22:54:15 sagira That's great.. I heard 4-year-olds are usually squirmy in bed
22:54:42 sagira Ouch..
22:55:26 PDMod_Kelly Well, if you are ever interested in the training, they are often offered in Charlotte, NC and I hope to be offering one here in Greenville, SC next year.
22:56:03 sagira Keep me posted, please
22:56:15 sagira Thanks for talking to me!
22:56:22 PDMod_Kelly You can check the website too and all of the 2 day workshops will be listed there.
22:56:23 sagira I feel special :)
22:56:37 PDMod_Kelly You're welcome! I guess Tina forgot.
22:56:53 PDMod_Kelly I told her I was guessing there wouldn't be a huge turnout because of the Thanksgiving holiday.
22:57:03 sagira One more teeny ? and I'll let you go
22:57:17 PDMod_Kelly Okay, it's fine. I'm usually here until midnight.
22:57:51 PDMod_Kelly And my congealed salad is all ready in the fridge!
22:58:14 sagira If it were Brandon hitting someone, how do I impress upon him the seriousness of the situation?
22:58:40 sagira Wouldn't hugging him feel confusing to him?
22:59:46 PDMod_Kelly Well, hugging does seem very contrary to traditional discipline.
22:59:57 PDMod_Kelly BUT children do not have to feel bad in order to do better.
23:00:17 PDMod_Kelly In my opinion children learn and know that hitting is not acceptable from parents modeling.
23:00:38 PDMod_Kelly So I'm guessing that he probably would never REALLY think that hitting is okay.
23:00:54 PDMod_Kelly He may try it out since he did see someone else using it.
23:01:00 sagira I do agree that I shouldn't make him feel bad
23:01:29 sagira But how does one so young understand that it was not OK (at all) to hit?
23:01:39 PDMod_Kelly Through the years, I have learned that hugging is always okay.
23:01:49 PDMod_Kelly My children know when they are doing something that I think is hurtful.
23:01:56 PDMod_Kelly My hug is actually very reassuring to them.
23:02:23 sagira That's good to know
23:02:42 PDMod_Kelly You bring up a good point and really children who are that young CAN NOT totally understand that it isn't okay to hit. That's why supervison is SO important.
23:03:16 sagira I guess hugs while explaining to them that it's wrong? Or I still love you but that's not OK""
23:04:00 sagira I try to say don't hit" because in my mind, I think they will keep remembering the "hit" part (maybe I'm crazy, but whenever I hear someone say "don't sing" I feel like singing!)"
23:04:00 PDMod_Kelly We all usually feel the impulse to hit at times or hurt others, but we fight that impulse because we can think about the future and how the hitting won't really solve the problem. But toddlers, 2's and 3's, even 4's just aren't capable of thinking into the future and seeing the true consequences of their actions.
23:04:17 PDMod_Kelly They are just implusive little people--not because they are mean, but because their brains aren't developed yet.
23:05:12 PDMod_Kelly It' s funhy that you mention the Don't" comment. I developed an activity to use in class that shows the importance of giving kids "DO" commands instead of "Don't " commands."
23:05:44 PDMod_Kelly I love the activity because it's a real eye opener for some parents.
23:06:10 PDMod_Kelly So when a child hits, parents can help kids by telling them what TO DO instead.
23:06:28 sagira I also read that somewhere in a Montessori book
23:06:44 sagira To teach children what they CAN do
23:06:54 PDMod_Kelly Ideas to do instead: hit a pillow, walk away when you're angry, tell them with your words (and then you actually have to give them some specific words to use.)
23:07:24 sagira wow this has really been enlightening
23:07:37 sagira And I think I could talk to you all night
23:07:52 PDMod_Kelly Have you read about the Wheel of Choice" in any of the PD books?"
23:08:02 PDMod_Kelly I can never keep up with which concepts are in which books.
23:08:51 sagira I just don't know if I can use it with Brandon yet
23:08:54 PDMod_Kelly I love sharing PD.
23:09:00 sagira because he's so young
23:09:04 PDMod_Kelly No, he isn't old enough yet.
23:09:11 sagira I love hearing PD :)
23:09:31 sagira So nice chatting with you
23:09:36 PDMod_Kelly But any of the ideas that are on the choice wheel would fall into the same category of giving him ideas of what to do instead.
23:10:00 sagira I see.. that makes sense
23:12:29 sagira Gotta go now, Kelly! Enjoy your tea!
23:12:46 PDMod_Kelly Thanks! Goodnight!


 

 

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