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Chat with Positive Discipline Facilitator & Associate, Kelly
of Jane Nelsen's positive discipline techniques and books
( www.positivediscipline.com )
3/2/05

20 mamas in attendance

Books by Jane Nelsen:

21:34:37 PDMod_Kelly Hi Moms!
21:34:39 tricia hi
21:34:46 firstbabybelly hi
21:34:56 tricia ok... so i gotta question.. who am i directing that too
21:34:57 tricia lol
21:35:01 Webmama_Tina go for it tricia, you're the first question tonite...this is casual chat so just throw out your questions
21:35:08 tricia aight
21:35:09 Webmama_Tina kelly is the positive discipline expert
21:35:12 Webmama_Tina trained and all that
21:35:15 tricia so umm ok...
21:35:19 tricia wow im all nervous
21:35:19 tricia lol
21:35:20 Webmama_Tina maybe you want to give an intro for these ladies kelly?
21:35:23 PDMod_Kelly Anyone want to chat about Positive Discipline?
21:35:28 tricia yup
21:35:31 tricia cuz im bad at it
21:35:49 PDMod_Kelly Well, if it will make you feel any better, I'm stressed right now because my kids were fighting earlier.
21:36:22 PDMod_Kelly I'm Kelly, Positive Discipline Associate.  I teach Positive Discipline (PD) classes.
21:36:24 tricia ok.. well i think mine is still awake after me tellin her to go to bed almost 2 hrs ago
21:36:43 PDMod_Kelly I have two kids --a son who is 12 and a dtr. who is 9 yo.
21:36:48 tricia ouch
21:37:07 PDMod_Kelly Is anyone here familiar with Positive Discipline?
21:37:19 annettemarie The books?
21:37:22 tricia hmmmmm is that the same as gentle?
21:37:51 PDMod_Kelly Yes, the books.  Or the philosophy in the books. --the Jane Nelsen version of Positive Discipline.
21:38:30 PDMod_Kelly Most of it would seem gentle, but some people don't think all of it is gentle.
21:38:32 annettemarie I like the books, but disagree on some of the independence" points"
21:38:45 tricia ok so what is the thought behind PD?
21:38:55 PDMod_Kelly Yes, that is what I was thinking about  --the independence parts
21:39:05 annettemarie No co-sleeping, right?
21:39:34 PDMod_Kelly PD is based on the work of Alfred Adler --psychologist of the 19th century  of sometime way back when.  LOL!
21:39:57 PDMod_Kelly I need to check up on the dates.
21:40:11 PDMod_Kelly Adler believed that we all have the primary need to belong" in our setting."
21:40:41 PDMod_Kelly We want to feel that we belong and that we are significant or have meaning to the people in our environment.
21:41:25 PDMod_Kelly Adler believed that the best/healthiest way to achieve belonging and significance is to contribute in meaningful ways to our environment.
21:41:43 PDMod_Kelly His view is that when children are misbehaving, it is because they have a MISTAKEN idea of how to belong.
21:42:07 PDMod_Kelly When children are misbehaving, they are usually using one of the four MISTAKEN GOALS to try to belong.
21:42:12 PDMod_Kelly The four mistaken goals are
21:42:16 PDMod_Kelly UNDUE ATTENTION
21:42:19 PDMod_Kelly POWER
21:42:22 PDMod_Kelly REVENGE
21:42:28 PDMod_Kelly ASSUMED INADEQUACY
21:42:47 annettemarie I have been having situations with my oldest son lately
21:42:49 annettemarie He is six
21:43:02 PDMod_Kelly So a child might misbehave to get undue attention because he/she believes that in order to belong, they must have constant attention.
21:43:22 PDMod_Kelly What's going on with your son AnnetteMarie?
21:43:42 annettemarie Things escalate and he hits me and throws things
21:43:55 annettemarie He is very intense and verbal
21:44:06 annettemarie Tonight when I sent him up to go to bed
21:44:11 annettemarie He had a major tantrum
21:44:14 PDMod_Kelly Have you worked on any calming down skills with him?
21:44:19 annettemarie And nothing seems to work when he gets like this
21:44:27 annettemarie We have done some deep breathing and some yoga
21:44:34 PDMod_Kelly That sounds good!
21:44:35 annettemarie He linkes the volcano pose- LOL!
21:44:49 PDMod_Kelly Have you talked to him about the tantrums at a time when he is calm?
21:44:52 annettemarie But when we are in the moment we are both too out of control to remember, it seems
21:44:57 annettemarie Yep, we've done that
21:45:02 PDMod_Kelly Yes, you both have flipped your lid"."
21:45:17 annettemarie Definitely
21:45:30 PDMod_Kelly It's an expression we use describing how the thinking part of the brain just flips up" and detaches from the rest of the brain."
21:45:30 tricia definately been there.. especially latey
21:45:31 annettemarie Punishments/consequences don't seem to have any effect
21:45:42 annettemarie And I make bigger and bigger threats
21:45:47 annettemarie And he gets angrier and angrier
21:46:08 PDMod_Kelly When we have flipped our lids, we can't access our higher level thinking skills and we just REACT out of emotion or safety.
21:46:26 annettemarie That's a good definition
21:46:26 PDMod_Kelly The first step is that the parent and the child have to put their lids" back on."
21:46:42 PDMod_Kelly So you have to work on calming down skills with him.
21:47:01 PDMod_Kelly So when you are both calm, sit down and make a list of some ideas that might help each of you calm down.  You can each have your own list.
21:47:08 Webmama_Tina oh that is a very good explanation...i do that way more than i should, ugh
21:47:16 PDMod_Kelly He can draw pictures to make his list if he wants.
21:47:19 annettemarie That's a good idea
21:47:23 annettemarie We can try it tomorrow
21:47:34 annettemarie If I recant my threat not to let him out of his room all day
21:47:43 PDMod_Kelly Then post the lists somewhere in a good place that is near where each person would want to calm down.
21:48:12 PDMod_Kelly After you've made the list, then do a role play with him.  Pretend you are both angry and you are going to PRACTICE going to your area to calm down.
21:48:24 PDMod_Kelly Practice as often as possible for a few weeks.
21:48:41 PDMod_Kelly The practice will help you remember what to do when the two of you Flip your lids.""
21:48:52 annettemarie OK
21:48:57 PDMod_Kelly It will be difficult at first, but with more practice it will get easier.
21:49:26 PDMod_Kelly Make sure that your son knows that both of you need to first calm down before you will try to solve the problem. It may take a while for both of you to calm down.
21:49:51 PDMod_Kelly Some ideas for calming down:   hitting a pillow, lying down, deep breathing, hammering  a plastic hammering toy
21:50:12 annettemarie How can I help him understand we just need to not be near each other at that point?
21:50:25 PDMod_Kelly listening to soft or classical music.  My neighbors keep a portable CD player loaded with classical music for just this purpose.
21:50:49 PDMod_Kelly The practice will help.  You each need to plan a spot to use to calm down.  Bedrooms with the door closed are an obvious choice.
21:51:01 annettemarie But not with two other little ones...
21:51:04 PDMod_Kelly BUT sometimes my kids would come and kick or pound on the door when I was trying to calm down.
21:51:26 PDMod_Kelly I have to share another idea with you.
21:51:35 annettemarie Great
21:51:51 PDMod_Kelly When there is a time when your son has flipped his lid, but your haven't and you are feeling pretty calm...............
21:52:16 PDMod_Kelly Go WITH HIM to calm down.  Grab a pillow and softly hand it to him.  He will probably throw it right back at you.
21:52:32 PDMod_Kelly Toss it to him gently again and again and again until he is calm or laughing, etc.
21:52:49 PDMod_Kelly I have done this with each of my children and the response was AMAZING!!!!!
21:53:03 annettemarie Sounds good
21:53:29 PDMod_Kelly BOTH of them came and found me in the house about 15 minutes later and said, Mom, I love you so much" out of the blue after I tossed the pillows with them to help them calm down."
21:54:02 PDMod_Kelly Only do this if you can do it without flipping your lid.  When you can stay calm it sends such a nice message that you will stay with them and help them calm down.
21:54:13 PDMod_Kelly And that you accept them even when they are angry.
21:54:21 annettemarie OK
21:54:34 PDMod_Kelly I would love to see how some other kids respond to this.
21:54:48 PDMod_Kelly Tina, is anyone cued up for a ?
21:55:11 Webmama_Tina sorry, i'm multitasking
21:55:22 PDMod_Kelly That's okay.  Itt's only been a sec.
21:55:23 Webmama_Tina i would say anyone with a question just throw them out there
21:55:24 Webmama_Tina :)
21:55:50 PDMod_Kelly I can just talk for sec to get things started.
21:55:55 Webmama_Tina ok
21:55:59 PDMod_Kelly I taught a class yesterday on power struggles.
21:56:15 Webmama_Tina oh that would be a good one to hear about...i've been dealing with that a lot lately with maevern
21:56:17 Webmama_Tina maeven
21:56:18 PDMod_Kelly This is a two session class so the parents will come back next week.
21:56:18 Webmama_Tina lol
21:56:38 PDMod_Kelly I gave the parents the homework assignment of deciding on one power struggle to give up.
21:56:58 PDMod_Kelly Maybe it's a power struggle that the parent feels rather silly about anyway and they don't even remember how it got started.
21:57:42 PDMod_Kelly Or maybe it's a power struggle that the parent can finally decide to let go of and let their child make a mistake about.
21:57:56 PDMod_Kelly Sometimes we get into power struggles with children because we are afraid to let them make their own mistakes.
21:58:15 Webmama_Tina we have power struggles sometimes over eating
21:58:25 Webmama_Tina i try not to make it a struggle, but its become a real issue lately
21:58:57 PDMod_Kelly Eating seems to be a very common power struggle.  I was talking to another mom today and she has an eating power struggle with her son who is 2.
21:59:03 Webmama_Tina hey mamas, y'all feel free to just throw in your questions and comments...this is a casual chat, not highly moderated like the mothering chats
21:59:07 mamalynn404 I have a sleep-resistant 10 mo and feel like I get into power struggles w/ her and so frustrated I an seething!
21:59:22 Webmama_Tina oh i hate that feeling  mamalynn404
21:59:35 Webmama_Tina i know i'm not doing any good when i get so p.o.d, but can't quite help it
21:59:37 PDMod_Kelly I will tell you what I did about eating  and you can try it if you feel comfortable.
21:59:43 Webmama_Tina ok kelly
21:59:46 MamaChel I feel the same way sometimes.
22:00:07 Webmama_Tina i'm open to suggestions...i figure she's not going to starve if she doesn't eat...but then she's a real whining, crying, maniac without food!
22:00:39 Webmama_Tina i mean she's not going to starve herself...she'll eat when she's hungry...but in the meantime...oh man!
22:00:48 PDMod_Kelly Well, first I will tell you what Jane writes in her book.  She says there are THREE THINGS that we can't make children do.
22:00:53 PDMod_Kelly They are sleeping, eating and toileting.
22:00:58 Webmama_Tina yup, i believe that
22:01:10 Webmama_Tina that's very true
22:01:15 PDMod_Kelly Children are really in charge of those things themselves.  We can TRY to be in charge of it, but it never seems to turn out well.
22:01:16 mamalynn404 hence, the power struggles!
22:01:23 Webmama_Tina yup  mamalynn404
22:01:40 Webmama_Tina especially when you have a super picky eater in a home of super picky eaters!
22:01:47 Webmama_Tina mealtime is a nightmare around here!
22:02:00 PDMod_Kelly We can try to set up the environment so that our children are more likely to eat, sleep and toilet, but the power struggle always seems to move in the opposite direction than the one we want to go.
22:02:29 mamalynn404 :D
22:02:47 PDMod_Kelly About food, how old is Maeven? (sp?)
22:03:26 PDMod_Kelly About the sleeping, babies are always seeming to adjust their schedules just when we think we've GOT a schedule going.
22:03:38 Webmama_Tina she's 4
22:03:52 Webmama_Tina you spelled it right
22:03:54 Webmama_Tina :)
22:04:31 PDMod_Kelly What I've really always done is make sure that there are at least 2 things on the table that my kids have eaten before and then I don't say anything.  They clear their own plates when they are finished.
22:04:59 PDMod_Kelly Tina, how would feel about doing mealtime that way?
22:05:25 Webmama_Tina hmm
22:05:34 Webmama_Tina sounds much easier
22:05:46 annettemarie Tina, we do that and it has really cut down on fights
22:05:49 Webmama_Tina i am tired of encouraging her to eat just 4 more bites""
22:05:59 annettemarie And I always surprised by what they chose to take
22:06:15 Webmama_Tina i made it a point to not do what my parents did...make us eat everything on the plate...
22:06:22 PDMod_Kelly I have never made" my kids eat anything at all and they both have a wide variety of tastes in food and eat plenty of healthy things."
22:06:22 Webmama_Tina and i make sure not to make things i KNOW she doesn't like
22:06:25 annettemarie We always have bread and butter, and noodles or rice
22:06:39 Webmama_Tina at least i try to...but that changes day to day! one time she says she likes something, the next she doesn't!
22:06:40 Jazzpurr88 Hello is this positive dicipline chat still?
22:06:43 PDMod_Kelly All kids are different though and that doesn't mean that my way would always result in kids who eat a variety.
22:07:02 Webmama_Tina yes  Jazzpurr88 !
22:07:09 Webmama_Tina you're in the right place, come on in and join us!
22:07:29 PDMod_Kelly Tina, if it would make you feel better, you could put three things on the table that you know she has eaten before.
22:07:42 Webmama_Tina my problem is that she just doesn't like pretty much everything...when she does like something i try to let her eat as much as she wants (if its healthy)
22:07:45 Jazzpurr88 How do you cope with a strong willed 16 almost 17 month old?
22:07:48 PDMod_Kelly I'm wondering if she is REALLY liking them one day and not the next or if it's really another issue.
22:07:48 Webmama_Tina like right now its mandarin oranges
22:08:15 Jazzpurr88 my DS is hooked on mandarin oranges right now also
22:08:19 Webmama_Tina kelly, i think its more a preschooler thing...like she's testing the waters
22:08:27 PDMod_Kelly About the 10 month old who won't sleep.  You can't make her sleep, but you can try to notice her rhythms to create a routine.
22:08:33 mamalynn404 DD nor I have never had a schedule...I do my best to follow her cues, except for bedtime, which I try to keep at around 7 (she's usually tired by 5:30, no matter # or length of naps).
22:08:39 PDMod_Kelly You can also give her plenty of floor time to tire her out.
22:08:48 mamalynn404 yes--i do that!
22:08:48 Webmama_Tina i truly don't think she doesn't like all the things she says she doesn't...especially since sometimes she'll eat a few bites and say she likes it then all of a sudden she doesn't
22:09:40 Webmama_Tina i don't think she even knows what she likes and dislikes
22:09:58 PDMod_Kelly One idea for the 10th month old is to have a simple routine before bedtime each night.
22:10:02 Jazzpurr88 mamalynn - does DD sleep through the night? How old is she?
22:10:05 PDMod_Kelly Do everything in the same order.
22:10:21 mamalynn404 10 mos.  We do have a simple routine...
22:10:47 mamalynn404 But hd comes home and she gets all excited.  But daytime sleep is my nightmare...
22:10:56 PDMod_Kelly So what happens to start the power struggle?
22:11:11 Webmama_Tina i won't do the make several different meals thing...at least i try not to...cuz i know that's not going to go in the right direction...but i'll let her have a p'nut butter/honey sandwhich as default
22:11:13 PDMod_Kelly Jazzpurr, I will answer in a sec.
22:11:36 mamalynn404 She yawans, rubs eyes, etc and when I tr to get her to sleep in sling/bouncing on ball, or in bed, she
22:11:49 mamalynn404 will fight it for 30-60 or more"
22:12:00 PDMod_Kelly Yes, we always gave our kids the option of making a PB sandwich and we taught them how to make one for themselves at about age 4.
22:12:05 Webmama_Tina well the instant food is on the table she says she doesn't like it and starts whining that she doesn't want it and often its something she hasn't even tasted yet...or sometimes its something that she HAS eaten and has liked!
22:12:23 PDMod_Kelly Have you tried just putting her down to put herself to sleep?
22:12:49 PDMod_Kelly There are some kids who get overstimulated and need to be away from stimulation to go to sleep.
22:13:01 mamalynn404 not exactly---she does not tolerate sleeping w/o me...
22:13:53 Webmama_Tina that actually could work...or maybe we could make them together during the day and put in ziplocs in the fridge...i like to have things down low for her to be able to access whenever she's hungry...i even put a bowl of cereal bars and fruit leathers in a low cupboard with a pair of kid scissors and she knows she is able to get some anytime she wants and doesn't have to ask for help to open
22:14:14 mamalynn404 i tried lying with her in bed and then making my narrow escape, but her mommy radar is so strong, that she's wailing within 15"

03/2/05"
22:14:40 Webmama_Tina the pb thing worked for a little while til she stopped liking those sandwhiches or we ran out of bread or some other ingredient...but she's liking it again now...i'll have to make a trip to the store again tomorrow to stock up!
22:14:50 PDMod_Kelly Another idea for the sleep issue is to try either a half hour before usualy or a half hour after.  Maybe she is getting overtired???
22:14:53 PDMod_Kelly It's so hard to know!!
22:15:05 Webmama_Tina mamalynn404 how old is she again?
22:15:12 PDMod_Kelly Jazzpurr, what kinds of thigns are going on with your child?
22:15:14 mamalynn404 i have to lie down w/ her and nurse till she's deeply asleep b/4 lvg again, then lather, rinse, repeat...10 mos
22:15:22 Jazzpurr88 How do I PM?
22:15:27 Webmama_Tina oh yes, my dd was the same way
22:15:37 PDMod_Kelly pm?
22:15:52 Webmama_Tina Jazzpurr88 double click the person you want to PM...their name in the list on the right
22:15:53 Jazzpurr88 private message
22:15:58 Jazzpurr88 thanks
22:16:01 Webmama_Tina not in the chat but in the list
22:16:15 PDMod_Kelly OH.  okay.
22:16:20 Webmama_Tina click once on their name in the chat and it pastes their name in the chat for you so you don't have to type it
22:16:22 MamaChel mamalynn404, my 7 mo fights sleep constantly. he usually prefers to sleep w/me as well. sometimes though he really needs to fall asleep himself. if i put him in his rocker and stay in his sight he'll fall asleep. it took much trial and error
22:17:03 mamalynn404 he IS overtired--practically all day.  she sleeps for only 1/2 hour at a time during the day, generally...awakens herself
22:17:33 nym hrmm
22:18:02 Webmama_Tina kelly...how much more time do you have? i see we are over time now...but we did get started late of course, argh
22:18:14 Jazzpurr88 My 16 month old DS will not sleep throught the night, will not follow simple rules, such as don't climb on the table and throw the lamp off of it, wacking the dog on the head repeatedly with a hard toy, throwing fits if he doesn't get his way at all times
22:18:25 PDMod_Kelly I can go a little longer.
22:18:29 Webmama_Tina ok
22:18:33 Webmama_Tina let us know when you need to go
22:18:35 Jazzpurr88 Our house has turned in to complete caos
22:18:53 Jazzpurr88 there is no peace and quite he is constantly screaming and whining
22:19:13 PDMod_Kelly Yes, toddlers don't really understand rules very well.
22:19:30 PDMod_Kelly One of the BEST things to do is to tell them what TO DO instead of what not to do.
22:19:31 nym nope
22:19:31 nym heh
22:20:00 PDMod_Kelly Another things is realize that the climbing is a very important part of their development.
22:20:21 PDMod_Kelly So when he is climbing on the table, direct him to a safe place for him to climb.
22:20:35 mamalynn404 MamaChel, we talked about transforming the crib that's used for storage into one for sleep.... :D
22:20:45 Jazzpurr88 I do that, when he is throwing whatever it is on the floor that I don't want him to I say...Please don't throw the lamp on the floor,  lets throw the ball instead
22:20:52 PDMod_Kelly Climbing is SOOOOOOOOOOOOOO important for healthy development, but it is definitely frustrating for parents.
22:21:30 PDMod_Kelly Give him lots of opportunities to climb --either at outdoor parks as the weather gets nice or at indoor parks.
22:21:41 Jazzpurr88 I don't mind the climbing part he has a lot of places to safely climb its just that what ever in in his reach he has to throw on the floor and destroy
22:22:21 PDMod_Kelly Tell me what  your main feelings are when he is doing the throwing.
22:22:28 PDMod_Kelly Choose from the catagories.
22:22:36 PDMod_Kelly A.Annoyed, irritated, worried, guilty
22:22:42 Jazzpurr88 We go to gymboree twice a week and playgroup at the Peace Center once a week and have a play center in out backyard
22:22:48 PDMod_Kelly B.  Threatened, provoked, challenged, defeated.
22:23:01 PDMod_Kelly C.  Hurt, disappointed, disbelieving, disgusted
22:23:11 PDMod_Kelly D.  Hopeless, helpless
22:23:30 PDMod_Kelly Do you live in Greenville, SC
22:23:35 PDMod_Kelly We have a Peace Center here.
22:24:15 nym I just dont leave stuff that can be wrecked on the table. DS often climbs onto the table and throws things off..
22:24:41 Jazzpurr88 and then he will not sleep, he will fall asleep between 7:00 p.m. and 8:00 p.m. and sleeps for 2 hours and then is awake and ready to go will play for 2 to 3 hours and go to sleep again and sleep for another 2 to 3 hours and then is up again.  this goes on
22:25:05 MamaChel mamalynn404, that could really work. we don't own a crib or I would try that.....
22:25:17 Jazzpurr88 allnight long untill about 7:00 a.m. and then he is up for the day
22:25:21 PDMod_Kelly Wow!! that DOES sound challenging.
22:25:33 mamalynn404 :)
22:25:34 PDMod_Kelly Is he taking one nap a day?
22:25:50 Jazzpurr88 I can sometimes get him to take a nap around 12:00 or 1:00 but it is only for 45 minutes to an housr
22:25:56 Jazzpurr88 hour
22:26:04 PDMod_Kelly Have you asked your ped about this?
22:26:32 Jazzpurr88 up the ped says to stop co sleeping and let him CIO
22:26:44 Jazzpurr88 and to stop BFing
22:26:55 PDMod_Kelly How do you feel about that advice?
22:27:07 Jazzpurr88 bunch of crap
22:27:27 PDMod_Kelly So are you nursing him back to sleep during the night?
22:28:48 Jazzpurr88 No I tell him that milkies are night night and we rock and cuddle and read if he will not go to sleep and if he insists on nursing we will nurse but most of the time he doesn't want to nurse or cuddle he wants out of the bed and run around and play
22:29:25 PDMod_Kelly I have heard of many things, but I really haven't heard of a child waking up raring to go in the middle of the night on a consistent basis.
22:29:54 PDMod_Kelly I was wondering if the ped would want to check out some things.
22:29:56 Jazzpurr88 I've tried to keep the midnight wake ups as dark and boring as possible, I've tried ignoring him, I've tried to put him in his crib to play and settle him self back to sleep
22:30:08 mamalynn404 That sounds VERY difficult!
22:30:25 PDMod_Kelly I'm exhausted just reading about it.
22:30:37 mamalynn404 :)
22:30:39 MamaChel That's rough.
22:30:46 PDMod_Kelly Is there anyone else at home to get up with him at night?
22:31:00 PDMod_Kelly Can you tag team with someone?
22:31:23 Jazzpurr88 He will sleep in his crib if I nurse him to sleep, but then he wakes up and I go and get him and bring him into the guest room and try to keep in there with the lights out and make it realy boring
22:31:56 PDMod_Kelly But it sounds like that isn't helping.  Correct?
22:32:49 Jazzpurr88 I've tried nursing him in his room and then putting him back in his crib and staying in his room and letting him fuss and slowly moving farther away from his crib but it turns into full blown melt down wihin minutes to the point he is gaging
22:33:20 PDMod_Kelly Can you scroll back up to the list of choices that I labeled A, B. C and D?
22:33:43 Jazzpurr88 he has never slept more than 5 hours his eniter life
22:33:45 PDMod_Kelly Which letter best describes your feelings?
22:34:42 Jazzpurr88 D and A
22:35:18 PDMod_Kelly Okay, I'm going to just see how this works.  PD uses the mistaken goal chart alot.
22:35:19 Jazzpurr88 right now DS is at my parents house because I just could deal with him anymore today
22:35:32 PDMod_Kelly That's nice that you can get a break.
22:35:58 Jazzpurr88 yeah, he is asleep now and they are going to call me when he wake sup to come and get him though
22:36:03 PDMod_Kelly If you picked A, then that's a clue that his mistaken goal is UNDUE attention.
22:36:16 Jazzpurr88 its nice being able to talk on the computer and eat a hot dinner
22:36:53 PDMod_Kelly So you're not comfortable with letting him cry it out?
22:37:24 Jazzpurr88 So he thinks I'm not paying him enough attention and is craving it more at night cause he knows I have to or will get up with him
22:37:52 Jazzpurr88 I can let him CIO to a certain point but then he starts gagging and throwing up
22:38:05 PDMod_Kelly Well, it's not exactly that he thinks you aren't paying him enough attention.  Well it sort of it, but I'm going to word it differently.
22:38:28 PDMod_Kelly Were you here when I was explaining Adler's views?
22:38:44 Jazzpurr88 no I missed that
22:38:45 PDMod_Kelly About people having the primary goal of belonging and significance""
22:38:47 PDMod_Kelly ?
22:39:09 Jazzpurr88 Ok I understand that
22:39:37 mamalynn404 He sounds like a spirited child w/ persistence and they do NOT respond well to CIO, apparently.
22:39:46 PDMod_Kelly Okay.  So Adler says that the best way for people to achieve belonging and significance is to contribute in meaningful ways to their social environment.
22:39:58 Jazzpurr88 ok
22:40:04 PDMod_Kelly BUT, children (and adults too) many times adopt a MISTAKEN GOAL about how to belong.
22:41:03 PDMod_Kelly So a child MISTAKENLY believes that in order to belong, I must have undue attention (constant attention) or be getting special service/keeping others busy with me in order to belong.""
22:41:38 PDMod_Kelly There are four mistaken goals --each corresponding to the four catagories of choices I gave to you.
22:42:19 PDMod_Kelly This may sound REALLY wacky, but it may help if you get him involved in helping you around the house.  Does he do things like carry his diaper to the hamper or trash?
22:43:13 PDMod_Kelly I've got a list of jobs that kids as young as two can do.  I know he's not two  yet, but I'm sure he can do atot.
22:43:15 PDMod_Kelly alot.
22:43:29 Jazzpurr88 no, he throws the biggest fit in the world during diapers changes and it is a battle of wills to get it done
22:43:55 Jazzpurr88 he feeds the animals every morning
22:44:14 PDMod_Kelly I would encourage you to get him involved in the diaper change as much as possible --with him going to get the diaper, pulling the wipes out, etc.
22:44:23 Jazzpurr88 gives the dogs scoops of food, gives the cats scoops of food and gives the fish sprinkles
22:44:27 PDMod_Kelly Feeding the animals is a great job for him!
22:44:42 PDMod_Kelly It sounds like he's doing some wonderful things.
22:45:07 PDMod_Kelly Is he the only child in your home?
22:45:10 Jazzpurr88 he gets up in the morning and goes down the hallway saying scoops scoops goes intot he kitchen and does it
22:45:17 Jazzpurr88 yes
22:46:16 PDMod_Kelly I really might try to get him to do as many things as possible to contribute more around the house and see if that helps any.  He sounds like he has tons of energy.
22:46:32 Jazzpurr88 of course he wants to give them scoops all and throws a fit when I tell him that it is not time to feed the animals
22:46:44 PDMod_Kelly Also try to get lots of breaks for youself when you can.
22:47:58 Jazzpurr88 what other things can I expect him to help doing, he does know what clean up is and does put his toys away when asked or if I start to pick up he will start
22:48:22 Jazzpurr88 but he gets somthing in his mind and goes nuts if he can't do it
22:48:25 PDMod_Kelly It sounds like you have some great routines and things going.
22:48:37 Jazzpurr88 he wanted to outside and do sidewalk chalk at 3:00 a.m.
22:48:42 PDMod_Kelly So what happens after he goes nuts?
22:49:13 Jazzpurr88 and chalk and paper wasn't good enough and crayons wasn't good enough
22:49:30 PDMod_Kelly He can help cook. He can lay out cold things on a cookie sheet such as break or tortillas.  He can wash vegetables in cold water, but of course close supervision is necessary so the hot water doesn't get turned on.
22:49:39 Jazzpurr88 he just screams and whines untill I find somthing else that seems more interesting
22:50:20 Jazzpurr88 he helps cook and prepare food, he helps put groceries away
22:50:31 PDMod_Kelly One thing that helps many kids is to acknowledge his feelings.  Don't try to make it better or find a substitution.  Just say things like, You're really sad that you can't do the sidewalk chalk right now, aren't you?""
22:50:55 PDMod_Kelly Okay, well maybe there isn't much more for him to do.  It sounds like he's very capable.
22:50:56 Jazzpurr88 he wipes down his highchair table and pushes his highchair into its corner when he is done
22:51:17 PDMod_Kelly Is the main problem at night?  Or at other times too?
22:52:05 Jazzpurr88 mainly at night during the day I have the energy or the resources to distract him
22:53:37 PDMod_Kelly I'm thinking that what might work is for you to decide what you will do and stick to it.  If you decide that you will not play with him at night, then don't, no matter how much he whines.  That will be tough, but he sounds persistent so as long as it will eventually work, he will keep persisting.
22:53:51 PDMod_Kelly You've GOT to get some sleep!
22:53:56 Jazzpurr88 but if he gets something in his head that he wants to do and he doesn't get to do it then the tantrums start
22:54:05 PDMod_Kelly Tantrums are okay.
22:54:09 PDMod_Kelly Really.
22:54:20 PDMod_Kelly Just step aside and let him have it.
22:54:45 PDMod_Kelly Is it that you are not okay with the tantrums?
22:54:57 Jazzpurr88 yeah, but at 3:00 a.m. it is not fun or after a night of no sleep it gets to me
22:55:18 PDMod_Kelly Is there anyone to tag team with at night?
22:55:45 Jazzpurr88 No I understand he is frustrated and needs to let off steam and has limited way of communicating what he wants
22:55:57 PDMod_Kelly Yes, exactly.
22:56:16 Jazzpurr88 NO, DH works 12 hour days 6 a.m. to 6 p.m.
22:56:49 PDMod_Kelly But you are working that schedule too right?
22:57:00 Jazzpurr88 I guess Ineed to let him sit in his crib and CIO and just clean up the puke
22:57:02 Jazzpurr88 up
22:57:21 PDMod_Kelly I have been seriously sleep deprived before and it's awful.
22:57:36 PDMod_Kelly I could never really focus.
22:57:54 PDMod_Kelly I'm concerned about you getting enough rest.
22:58:06 Jazzpurr88 I sleep when he sleeps
22:58:26 Jazzpurr88 except right now I'm eating dinner and chatting
22:58:44 Jazzpurr88 well the parents are calling he is awake
22:58:53 PDMod_Kelly You have to decide if you want something different and that's difficult.
22:59:02 PDMod_Kelly Okay.
22:59:03 Jazzpurr88 my night has begun
22:59:09 Jazzpurr88 DH is going to go get him
22:59:47 Jazzpurr88 so now when he gets home we will take a bath, play with a quite toy, read and nurse
23:00:03 PDMod_Kelly If you want something to change, you've got to be the one to change because he won't.  That doesn't mean that you have do something you are really opposed to.......
23:00:09 Jazzpurr88 around 10:00 p.m. he will fall back to sleep and then wake up again around 1:00 a.m.
23:00:12 PDMod_Kelly It just means that you have to do something" different."
23:00:57 mamalynn404 Just to clarify, by letting him sit in his crib to CIO, do you mean allowing him to have a tantrum?
23:01:30 PDMod_Kelly Oh, please, I meant to ask earlier for others to offer advice and encouragement to Jazzpurr.
23:01:39 PDMod_Kelly Thanks Lynn.
23:01:45 mamalynn404 sure!
23:01:54 Jazzpurr88 Will CIO damage his self esteem or his security that we will always be there for him?  I gues that my big concern is that I'm going to break his spirit
23:02:14 PDMod_Kelly I've been in my own little conversation for a long time and I think it would be helpful for Jazzpurr to hear lots of ideas and advice from other moms.
23:02:27 Jazzpurr88 sorry to steal the show
23:02:35 MamaChel I think there is a difference between CIO and allowing him to have a tantrum?
23:02:52 PDMod_Kelly No, this is a huge issue.  I really want you to get some needed sleep and a small amount of time to do something that you find interesting or fun.
23:03:23 mamalynn404 If you are present while allowing hime to have his feelings, that is different than leaving him alone in a room to CIO.
23:03:59 PDMod_Kelly I keep wondering why he wakes up and can't get back to sleep.  I'm wondering if he needs some help learning to fall asleep on his own.
23:04:08 Jazzpurr88 right but if I go in there and sooth himor just sit there and let him cry he get more and more worke dup to the point he is gagging and throwing up
23:04:52 PDMod_Kelly I'm wondering if it gets worse because he is trying to ......................
23:04:55 Jazzpurr88 He falls asleep on his own for naps
23:05:15 mamalynn404 I can relate--my dd wants to connect w/ me
23:05:19 PDMod_Kelly That's great that he falls asleep on his own for naps.  So that is probably not the issue.
23:05:37 MamaChel This must be so hard for you. What is different at bedtime then naptime?
23:05:46 Jazzpurr88 no its the night time 2 hours here and 3 hours there
23:05:58 PDMod_Kelly trying to make it worse for you" in a way.  That sounds so negative when I say it that way."
23:06:49 Jazzpurr88 I know what you mean its his way of manipulating me... knows that if he starts to gag or throw up I'll pick him up
23:07:09 PDMod_Kelly Now I'm wondering if he needs a sun lamp kind of thing----the thing that helps people's circadian rhythms regulate.
23:07:18 Jazzpurr88 but I can't let him sleep in throw up all night
23:07:28 PDMod_Kelly Well, then we hate to NOT be there for our kids when they need us.
23:08:04 PDMod_Kelly My son would cry too to go to sleep, but never gagging or anything but then he would alway sleep through the night.
23:08:08 Jazzpurr88 should I take him outside more during the day and get more sunlight
23:08:09 PDMod_Kelly I always regretted that I let him cry.
23:08:35 PDMod_Kelly I don't know if the sunlight would help, but I'd guess that anything is worth a try at this point.
23:08:50 PDMod_Kelly Some people's bodys are more affected than others by that sort of thing.
23:08:56 Jazzpurr88 Well he is home and wanting mama
23:08:58 MamaChel my DS went through a similar sleep phase, we moved his 'bed' to the ottoman he napped on for a few months. is it possible to change the location?
23:09:07 Jazzpurr88 thaks for letting me vent and the advice
23:09:15 PDMod_Kelly I just hope you get some rest soon.
23:09:37 Jazzpurr88 I sleep when he sleeps, I'm very good at that
23:09:55 PDMod_Kelly Do you ever get to get away --just to have fun as an adult??
23:10:02 Jazzpurr88 I'm going to try a change in routine and more outside playtime
23:10:10 PDMod_Kelly Okay,I REALLY hope that helps.
23:10:32 Jazzpurr88 yes my best friend and I go out on thursday night and have dinner or coffee of something for a couple of hours
23:10:48 Jazzpurr88 he goes to my parents
23:10:49 PDMod_Kelly Great!! I sounds like you've got a lot of balance in your life and in your son's life.
23:10:56 Jazzpurr88 I try
23:10:56 sagira Have you tried tiring him out just before going to sleep and when he wakes up late at night to play a recording of your singing or some soft music to help him go back to sleep?
23:11:44 PDMod_Kelly I'm sure there's a solution that would work for everyone.
23:11:49 Jazzpurr88 Thanks again guys I've got to go
23:13:01 mamalynn404 Kelly--have you noticed any adverse outcomes w/ your son on account of CIO?
23:14:32 PDMod_Kelly Well, he STILL has trouble falling asleep, but I'm not sure that it's due to the tramatic nights of his toddlerhood or not.  He has dyslexia and the falling asleep issue is very common in kids
23:14:37 PDMod_Kelly with dyslexia.
23:15:05 PDMod_Kelly I don't have dyslexia but the gene comes from my side of the family and I have a hard time falling asleep as well.
23:15:20 mamalynn404 My dh has insomnia...
23:15:33 mamalynn404 Who knows?
23:15:42 PDMod_Kelly And of course my second child that I co-slept with and nursed longer -she actually now falls asleep by herself very well.
23:15:54 PDMod_Kelly BUT I had to lay down with her every night when she was 3 and 4 yo.
23:16:13 mamalynn404 What about before?
23:16:25 PDMod_Kelly Before 3 and 4?
23:16:31 mamalynn404 yes...
23:16:54 PDMod_Kelly It was similar to what Jazzpurr is going through except my dd. would go right back to sleep if I brought her in my bed.
23:17:21 mamalynn404 that was a blessing, I'm sure.
23:17:26 PDMod_Kelly And when she moved into a big bed, she'd just walk down the hall and climb into bed with us and go right back to sleep.  We wouldn't even notice she was there sometimes.
23:17:44 mamalynn404 :)
23:18:07 sagira Still chatting?  I got accidentally kicked out!
23:18:23 mamalynn404 yup!
23:18:26 PDMod_Kelly She was easy to have in our bed because she didn't move.  My son DID move around alot and kicked and such in his sleep so ........
23:18:35 PDMod_Kelly he slept in his crib.
23:18:36 MamaChel My DS sometimes climbs into bed w/ us and I don't notice until the morning. He sleeps by himself about half the time now.
23:18:53 mamalynn404 he's 7 mos?
23:19:06 mamalynn404 sorry...
23:19:26 PDMod_Kelly Who's 7 mths?
23:19:28 mamalynn404 confused you with someone else
23:19:33 PDMod_Kelly k
23:19:57 MamaChel No, the *other* DS is 7 mos. My oldest DS is almost 3, sorry about that.
23:20:01 PDMod_Kelly I think that sleep issues are the toughtest ?s for me to answer.
23:20:28 PDMod_Kelly Because everyone has different ideas and levels of comfort and such.
23:20:45 sagira That's true.  It's such a personal and individual issue
23:20:57 mamalynn404 Probably for everyone--the ped we saw a few days ago threw up her hands and said sorry!""
23:21:20 PDMod_Kelly We all seem to make it through somehow though!!  Sleep deprived and all.
23:21:31 MamaChel Sleep issues are tough for everyone, it's hard to think objectively when you're sleep deprived.
23:21:52 mamalynn404 I'm ust hoping o davoi going insane or having a heart attack before the issue dissipates!
23:21:59 PDMod_Kelly I'm not sure I could do it again at the age I am now.  I'd just drop.
23:22:48 MamaChel I'm a chronic insomniac, I rarely sleep more than 4 hours at a stretch anyway. It's still so hard some days.
23:22:55 PDMod_Kelly OH WOW!
23:23:28 MamaChel runs in the family, I'm hoping my boys miss this trait.
23:24:09 mamalynn404 I recently started taking L-tryptophan, with the hope that it will pass into my milk for dd...
23:24:16 MamaChel it's also why i let my 2 yo sleep on the couch or in his nap chair if he needs to, whatever allows him to sleep the best works for me.
23:24:31 PDMod_Kelly After I went though some grief therapy, that's when I was finally able to fall sleep in less than 20 min.
23:24:59 mamalynn404 yes, grief can really impair sleep!
23:25:20 PDMod_Kelly AFter that , I suggest therapy for anyone who thinks they need it.
23:25:34 PDMod_Kelly I could hardly believe the difference in me, especially in my sleep.
23:25:51 mamalynn404 I'm seeing my therapist again tomorrow!
23:26:11 PDMod_Kelly Get to those deep issues!!
23:26:34 MamaChel i need to start seeing a therapist again, I function much better when I have someone on" me about my issues."
23:26:36 mamalynn404 Indeed!  We're gonna try EMDR again...
23:26:47 MamaChel What is EMDR?
23:27:34 mamalynn404 Eye movement desensitization & re-education
23:27:44 sagira Wow..
23:28:04 mamalynn404 It helps clear stored subconscious patterns
23:28:35 mamalynn404 Kelly --are you a therapist or in school to become one?
23:28:37 PDMod_Kelly Wow!  How is that done?
23:28:41 MamaChel Wow. I'll look into that.
23:28:59 PDMod_Kelly No.  I'm just a parent who took training to teach parenting classes.
23:29:23 PDMod_Kelly I've thought about becoming a therapist, but I really like being home with my kids most of the time --except tonight when they were fighting.
23:29:26 PDMod_Kelly :)
23:29:37 mamalynn404 You're great!   The therapist can have your eyes follow their fingers moving quickly  or...
23:29:37 PDMod_Kelly I majored in physical education in college.
23:29:55 sagira I would love to become a child psychologist
23:30:13 PDMod_Kelly I'm working on my writing now.
23:30:24 mamalynn404 gives you a pulsineg dvice to hold in each hand that helps to connect both the L and R brain hemisphere
23:30:31 PDMod_Kelly I've gotten one article published and I'm interested in writing for children
23:30:52 mamalynn404 wonderful for you both, kelly and sagira!
23:30:53 sagira Well, I gotta go.  Ds needs to go to sleep.  It's past his bedtime (bedtime: 11).
23:30:57 PDMod_Kelly I'm in a writing club for people who write for children and I'm hoping to eventually submit some manuscripts.
23:31:11 mamalynn404 wow...
23:31:21 PDMod_Kelly So I think I would like to be a writer when I grow up.
23:31:32 mamalynn404 LOL!
23:31:33 MamaChel That sounds like a wonderful plan. I used to write many years ago. One day I'll get back into it.
23:31:56 mamalynn404 Writing's fun...and oh-so-therapeutic!
23:32:02 PDMod_Kelly It's been nice to rediscover myself now that my kids are older.
23:32:03 sagira Thanks, Kelly and good luck with the writing!